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	<title>Comments on: A Modest Proposal</title>
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	<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/</link>
	<description>Writing in Memory of Paulo Freire</description>
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		<title>By: profacero</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-22172</link>
		<dc:creator>profacero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-22172</guid>
		<description>See also Undine&#039;s latest hilarious post and its chilling link:
http://notofgeneralinterest.blogspot.com/2008/04/tenure-musical.html

Take the opportunity to look at all of Undine&#039;s April posts, which are excellent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See also Undine&#8217;s latest hilarious post and its chilling link:<br />
<a href="http://notofgeneralinterest.blogspot.com/2008/04/tenure-musical.html" rel="nofollow">http://notofgeneralinterest.blogspot.com/2008/04/tenure-musical.html</a></p>
<p>Take the opportunity to look at all of Undine&#8217;s April posts, which are excellent.</p>
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		<title>By: profacero</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-22167</link>
		<dc:creator>profacero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-22167</guid>
		<description>P.S. Lumpenprof&#039;s commentator insists that there are good reasons to deny tenure and I do not disagree but I think that is because since we can deny it we do not always hire well, and that then the tenure track makes people less productive not more.

That is why I have this radical &quot;modest&quot; proposal - to counterbalance all those who want more time to tenure, or to abolish the tenure system. Meanwhile check out this video on No Child Left Behind - I think a version of it could be made for the tenure track: http://servetus.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/for-the-purpose-of-figuring-out-how-to-imbed-a-video-a-bitter-snort/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. Lumpenprof&#8217;s commentator insists that there are good reasons to deny tenure and I do not disagree but I think that is because since we can deny it we do not always hire well, and that then the tenure track makes people less productive not more.</p>
<p>That is why I have this radical &#8220;modest&#8221; proposal &#8211; to counterbalance all those who want more time to tenure, or to abolish the tenure system. Meanwhile check out this video on No Child Left Behind &#8211; I think a version of it could be made for the tenure track: <a href="http://servetus.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/for-the-purpose-of-figuring-out-how-to-imbed-a-video-a-bitter-snort/" rel="nofollow">http://servetus.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/for-the-purpose-of-figuring-out-how-to-imbed-a-video-a-bitter-snort/</a></p>
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		<title>By: profacero</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-22063</link>
		<dc:creator>profacero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-22063</guid>
		<description>This is fascinating - thanks, Constructivist!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is fascinating &#8211; thanks, Constructivist!</p>
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		<title>By: The Constructivist</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-22057</link>
		<dc:creator>The Constructivist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 07:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-22057</guid>
		<description>One quick observation:  your proposal seems to be the system in Japan, at least for Japanese professors, but things are a whole lot less defined there and they are in major flux in the past decade.  So you might want to see if you can find out more about how it&#039;s working for professors, students, and institutions there.  BTW, the faculty at the national universities at least are all unionized there....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One quick observation:  your proposal seems to be the system in Japan, at least for Japanese professors, but things are a whole lot less defined there and they are in major flux in the past decade.  So you might want to see if you can find out more about how it&#8217;s working for professors, students, and institutions there.  BTW, the faculty at the national universities at least are all unionized there&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: profacero</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-22009</link>
		<dc:creator>profacero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-22009</guid>
		<description>&quot;...we also had a case where a very bad colleague who was a bad teacher did not get tenure because he did not meet the standards, and it was a relief.&quot;

So did we, but (a) we knew we were taking a major risk when we hired this person and we should have been more careful, and (b) the problems became evident here in the first year, so Historiann&#039;s plan (2 year probationary period) would have actually shortened all of our suffering.

&quot;...it was necessary for the college to protect us from an out-of-control set of full professors for years.&quot;

It is my contention that they&#039;d have been bullies whether they were tenured / full or not ... and since I know where you are, I deduce who they are, and I know they were publishing, so they don&#039;t fall into the &#039;dead wood&#039; category so many people seem to assume tenured faculty do. As you say, it&#039;s not a tenure problem but &quot;whether or not a particular institutional process and accountability systems do what they are supposed to do (if they even exist at all) to protect both the rights of the &#039;probationary&#039; faculty member and the needs of the department.&quot;

&quot;tenure is vitally necessary to ensure academic freedom and all that good stuff&quot;

I think so too, and I keep coming back to the question of governance (which includes &#039;service&#039;). 
If professors are untenured, those who run the joint won&#039;t be professors, won&#039;t have that kind of training, etc. ... and these institutions are supposed to be universities!!! I say the people in charge need to be professors. It is why I always say administrators should have a research degree and successful experience as professors. That way they know what it is they are managing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;we also had a case where a very bad colleague who was a bad teacher did not get tenure because he did not meet the standards, and it was a relief.&#8221;</p>
<p>So did we, but (a) we knew we were taking a major risk when we hired this person and we should have been more careful, and (b) the problems became evident here in the first year, so Historiann&#8217;s plan (2 year probationary period) would have actually shortened all of our suffering.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;it was necessary for the college to protect us from an out-of-control set of full professors for years.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is my contention that they&#8217;d have been bullies whether they were tenured / full or not &#8230; and since I know where you are, I deduce who they are, and I know they were publishing, so they don&#8217;t fall into the &#8216;dead wood&#8217; category so many people seem to assume tenured faculty do. As you say, it&#8217;s not a tenure problem but &#8220;whether or not a particular institutional process and accountability systems do what they are supposed to do (if they even exist at all) to protect both the rights of the &#8216;probationary&#8217; faculty member and the needs of the department.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;tenure is vitally necessary to ensure academic freedom and all that good stuff&#8221;</p>
<p>I think so too, and I keep coming back to the question of governance (which includes &#8217;service&#8217;).<br />
If professors are untenured, those who run the joint won&#8217;t be professors, won&#8217;t have that kind of training, etc. &#8230; and these institutions are supposed to be universities!!! I say the people in charge need to be professors. It is why I always say administrators should have a research degree and successful experience as professors. That way they know what it is they are managing.</p>
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		<title>By: Joanna</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-22004</link>
		<dc:creator>Joanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-22004</guid>
		<description>I have hesitated to weigh in on this,  because my own experience has been that tenure is vitally necessary to ensure academic freedom and all that good stuff, but what is often broken is not tenure itself, but whether or not a particular institutional process and accountability systems do what they are supposed to do (if they even exist at all) to protect both the rights of the &quot;probationary&quot; faculty member and the needs of the department. In my department, it was necessary for the college to protect us from an out-of-control set of full professors for years. but we also had a case where a very bad colleague who was a bad teacher did not get tenure because he did not meet the standards, and it was a relief. My university has a very carefully structured process with lots of transparency and oversight (because of past lawsuits brought by women over discrimination, in fact) and it mostly works, but that doesn&#039;t mean there still aren&#039;t struggles and pain. But when the Regents threatened to do away with tenure, the faculty revolted and started unionizing. Too bad we fell 7 votes short, but we headed off the plan and got rid of those particular Regents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have hesitated to weigh in on this,  because my own experience has been that tenure is vitally necessary to ensure academic freedom and all that good stuff, but what is often broken is not tenure itself, but whether or not a particular institutional process and accountability systems do what they are supposed to do (if they even exist at all) to protect both the rights of the &#8220;probationary&#8221; faculty member and the needs of the department. In my department, it was necessary for the college to protect us from an out-of-control set of full professors for years. but we also had a case where a very bad colleague who was a bad teacher did not get tenure because he did not meet the standards, and it was a relief. My university has a very carefully structured process with lots of transparency and oversight (because of past lawsuits brought by women over discrimination, in fact) and it mostly works, but that doesn&#8217;t mean there still aren&#8217;t struggles and pain. But when the Regents threatened to do away with tenure, the faculty revolted and started unionizing. Too bad we fell 7 votes short, but we headed off the plan and got rid of those particular Regents.</p>
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		<title>By: profacero</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-22002</link>
		<dc:creator>profacero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-22002</guid>
		<description>Rats in mazes, yes. So they&#039;re handing out punishments because they actually want disempowered people around them more than they want achievement from their institution. I can believe it.

Six years as a limit, not for the candidate to keep working but for the institution to hold them back, got it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rats in mazes, yes. So they&#8217;re handing out punishments because they actually want disempowered people around them more than they want achievement from their institution. I can believe it.</p>
<p>Six years as a limit, not for the candidate to keep working but for the institution to hold them back, got it.</p>
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		<title>By: LumpenProf</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-21999</link>
		<dc:creator>LumpenProf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-21999</guid>
		<description>And on the question of punishment and reward... let me just add this: Rewards certainly work to motivate me to do more and better work. Even cheesy rewards, like letters of commendation, acknowledgment in the college news letter, or a lunch in recognition of service -- these all work on me even though I know those aren&#039;t real rewards like raises or promotion. And similarly, punishment makes me withdraw and slow down. I&#039;ve gone through nearly five years of punishments at my current institution and it certainly shows in my productivity, campus involvement, and general attitude.

These results shouldn&#039;t come as any surprise to administrators. I&#039;m sure there are well know studies on the behavior of rats in mazes given electrical shocks versus versus food rewards that exactly mirror the responses of faculty members to strife and praise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And on the question of punishment and reward&#8230; let me just add this: Rewards certainly work to motivate me to do more and better work. Even cheesy rewards, like letters of commendation, acknowledgment in the college news letter, or a lunch in recognition of service &#8212; these all work on me even though I know those aren&#8217;t real rewards like raises or promotion. And similarly, punishment makes me withdraw and slow down. I&#8217;ve gone through nearly five years of punishments at my current institution and it certainly shows in my productivity, campus involvement, and general attitude.</p>
<p>These results shouldn&#8217;t come as any surprise to administrators. I&#8217;m sure there are well know studies on the behavior of rats in mazes given electrical shocks versus versus food rewards that exactly mirror the responses of faculty members to strife and praise.</p>
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		<title>By: LumpenProf</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-21998</link>
		<dc:creator>LumpenProf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-21998</guid>
		<description>The six year time clock doesn&#039;t mean you can&#039;t keep working Lecturer gigs and keep publishing and applying for tenure track jobs for as long as you like. All that it means is that when you are finally hired into a tenure track job, you get full credit for time served. If you have eight or nine years of full-time teaching experience already and you land a tenure-track job, then tenure should come at the time of the hire. There is no reason to tack on another six years of probationary time. It&#039;s already abundantly clear what that person can accomplish in six years. It&#039;s on their vita.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The six year time clock doesn&#8217;t mean you can&#8217;t keep working Lecturer gigs and keep publishing and applying for tenure track jobs for as long as you like. All that it means is that when you are finally hired into a tenure track job, you get full credit for time served. If you have eight or nine years of full-time teaching experience already and you land a tenure-track job, then tenure should come at the time of the hire. There is no reason to tack on another six years of probationary time. It&#8217;s already abundantly clear what that person can accomplish in six years. It&#8217;s on their vita.</p>
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		<title>By: profacero</title>
		<link>http://profacero.wordpress.com/2008/03/30/a-modest-proposal-2/#comment-21997</link>
		<dc:creator>profacero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://profacero.wordpress.com/?p=1208#comment-21997</guid>
		<description>&quot;My only concern about LP’s and the AAUP’s “six years” plan is, what happens when one’s 6-year alarm clock rings, and one hasn’t landed a TT job? Does that mean that time’s up, you’re superannuated, it’s too late? Where does someone go from there?&quot;

That&#039;s my concern, too. I&#039;ll go over to your blog / IHE and then get to grading !!! I think we should *at least* put a manifesto in IHE. Here, everyone, is the IHE link, a very informative article which bears study I cannot undertake at this very moment because I need to make grades!!! http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/03/31/tenure ... and here is a live link to Historiann&#039;s post, which has useful links in it. http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/31/tenure-again-oh-noes/

Historiann - we&#039;re hiring now and several of the candidates have credentials for tenure, others for advanced asst. prof. A couple we like really are traditional finishing grad students but they have more and better teaching experience than such students used to have, and I have no reason at all to believe they won&#039;t hit the ground running with publications as long as we don&#039;t torture/depress them. The reason I want tenurable / tenured candidates is that there is so much program building and such to do. Our longtime nontenurables just don&#039;t have the kind of commitment to the profession and the institution to undertake that kind of service ... we need some collegial cooperation and for that we need empowered colleagues, not just employees who ultimately think more in terms of hourly wage than anything else, even though they are nice people, dedicated, good teachers, and so on - and in some cases, also good publishers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My only concern about LP’s and the AAUP’s “six years” plan is, what happens when one’s 6-year alarm clock rings, and one hasn’t landed a TT job? Does that mean that time’s up, you’re superannuated, it’s too late? Where does someone go from there?&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s my concern, too. I&#8217;ll go over to your blog / IHE and then get to grading !!! I think we should *at least* put a manifesto in IHE. Here, everyone, is the IHE link, a very informative article which bears study I cannot undertake at this very moment because I need to make grades!!! <a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/03/31/tenure" rel="nofollow">http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/03/31/tenure</a> &#8230; and here is a live link to Historiann&#8217;s post, which has useful links in it. <a href="http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/31/tenure-again-oh-noes/" rel="nofollow">http://www.historiann.com/2008/03/31/tenure-again-oh-noes/</a></p>
<p>Historiann &#8211; we&#8217;re hiring now and several of the candidates have credentials for tenure, others for advanced asst. prof. A couple we like really are traditional finishing grad students but they have more and better teaching experience than such students used to have, and I have no reason at all to believe they won&#8217;t hit the ground running with publications as long as we don&#8217;t torture/depress them. The reason I want tenurable / tenured candidates is that there is so much program building and such to do. Our longtime nontenurables just don&#8217;t have the kind of commitment to the profession and the institution to undertake that kind of service &#8230; we need some collegial cooperation and for that we need empowered colleagues, not just employees who ultimately think more in terms of hourly wage than anything else, even though they are nice people, dedicated, good teachers, and so on &#8211; and in some cases, also good publishers.</p>
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